Docking

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I have been wondering what the purpose of docking OES tails is? I do prefer the look when docked, but I was just wondering. Aren't some born without tails to begin with? If so how does that happen, some with and some without? I know Bouvier's are also docked (Luke is Bouvier/OES Embarassed) and my only guess is that since they are both herders, it has something to do with that, or at least started out that way long ago when that was their specific purpose. Not a hugely important question, just me wondering Smile
I'm not sure if anyone knows the answer to this question for sure, but according to what I've read when OES were working dogs their tails were docked to prove that they weren't luxury pets - and therefor not taxed. Of course, it could be that one pup a long time ago was born without a tail, and therefor with a wigglebum, and everyone has copied this since (but I kindof doubt it). Laughing
I read exactly the same thing...no tail..no tax...a working dog was exempt from being taxed. Makes sense(cents) to me!! Laughing Laughing
I am confused as to whether or not some are born without one already??
I once had a male pup born with about a 1 inch stub. He did not make it. To what makes sense to me is that this would be a deformity (not being born with a tail)
I read somewhere that they used to dock the tails so the sheep wouldn't gnaw on them. Maybe that's not true though. Question
Sheep dogs are born with tails. If you look at some pics from our European members you'll see nice long bushy tails.

LukiesMommy wrote:
I have been wondering what the purpose of docking OES tails is? I do prefer the look when docked, but I was just wondering. Aren't some born without tails to begin with? If so how does that happen, some with and some without? I know Bouvier's are also docked (Luke is Bouvier/OES Embarassed) and my only guess is that since they are both herders, it has something to do with that, or at least started out that way long ago when that was their specific purpose. Not a hugely important question, just me wondering Smile


Well , according to my friends in the UK there were no taxes at that time otherwise the Border Collie , Collie and some more breeds , all would have been docked. The OES is so heavily coated that the sheperhds docked them and shaved them the same time as the sheep , just to keep them clean, just my idea but it does make sense
In general oes are born with long tails
Just a theory but here we dock lambs tails to prevent flies from laying eggs and causing infections in that area, maybe if dogs lived in the same conditions they also were docked for the same reason. Just a thought!
I am a soon to be OES owner - get my new pup 3/15/08 - I was wondering does everyone dock the tails? I would love to see pics of
an OES without the tail docked. Thanks
Chris
Welcome to the forum. Very Happy Congrats on your new puppy. Very Happy

Tails are docked when the puppies are between 1-3 days old, usually by the vet.

Here is a link to a topic in the Pictures section where Susan posted a video link to some OES in Germany that have tails.

http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=18640
The traditional reason given in my readings is that the docked tail denoted tax exempt status because an OES was a working dog.

The practical reasons--to prevent infections, etc. also make sense, but I believe the tax reason.

In my books, it says that tails should be docked if not born tail-less, so I assumed that some pups were born without tails. Never asked about this but was always curious.

In Europe where docking is banned, are dew claws removed or left?

cp7430 wrote:
I am a soon to be OES owner - get my new pup 3/15/08 - I was wondering does everyone dock the tails? I would love to see pics of
an OES without the tail docked. Thanks
Chris


All reputable breeders in the U.S. and Canada will dock the tails according to the standard. I'd reconsider any breeder that sells OES with tails in North America. However, quite a few of our European and British members have undocked dogs. Browse through the photo gallery and you'll see some. Lisaoes in Australia just had a litter of pups a few weeks ago all with tails, too. Smile
Thanks Tammy,
I see you are in North Carolina, that is where I am picking up my
new pup - Statesville? I currently have a 2.5 yr old Alaskan Malamute
female - 115 lbs and she definitely needs a playmate. I went to the
link and I really like the look of the oes' with tails - they look cute.
Thanks for the info.
Oh I'm late to a post (as usual). Laughing

Aren't those tails beautiful?? So why do we (U.S.) still dock the tails??
Because , this is according to our standard !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,It has been so for ever and we DO NOT want to change that here.

Edy
Personally, if I were to go out and buy a puppy as a pet, I would request no docking of his/her tail definately, I feel they look just as nice as nature intended them to be, my personal feeling is that no dogs should be docked unless there is a medical reason......you wouldn't have a baby a few days old and have their little finger amputated just because you thought it looked better?? Crying or Very sad
Infact I would say that I would go out of my way to get an intact dog.

As for the reasoning I agree that this was probably to prevent fly strike (fly lays eggs around back end and maggots eat away at flesh) as with lambs, which is a pretty good reason as it is as hoirrible as it sounds!

My girl is a cross (OES x Bearded Collie), she has a tail, have a look at her photos by clicking on the little camera image below this message.

Tails are great for dogs to communicate with to both humans and other animals.
There is nothing better than seeing a waggy tail Laughing

bizboots wrote:
Because , this is according to our standard !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,It has been so for ever and we DO NOT want to change that here.

Edy


I also think in part it is because we don't want to be forced to change it.

kerry wrote:

bizboots wrote:
Because , this is according to our standard !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,It has been so for ever and we DO NOT want to change that here.

Edy


I also think in part it is because we don't want to be forced to change it.


^
I agree, many people don't like being forced to do things and often forcing an issue can make things worse, it is better to be given all the relevant facts and make your own informed choice. Cool

As for breed standard, surely that isn't the be all and end all, do most people not have dogs as pets only?? Confused
If they are for showing, shoudn't it be for fun for both dog and owner and not just to have a winning dog? I think Standards should be re-written to judge dogs on health, ability, obedience, how their best qualities are displayed, the relationship between dog and owner and looks rather than FOCUSING on what humans THINK they should look like. Tail or no tail, it shouldn't really be a mark of whether the dog is a good example of the breed as it isn't down to the dog or breeding it is just humans interfering. Rolling Eyes
Also...
Just because something as been a certain way for a long time doesn't mean it is right or shouldn't be changed Confused
Surely if no one has a 100% reason why tails should or were docked in the past, there is obviously no need for it in these times, so why continue it? Just because it pleases some people to look at?? Shocked

Flossiesmum wrote:
Personally, if I were to go out and buy a puppy as a pet, I would request no docking of his/her tail definately,


If you're in the US, no Old English Sheepdog Club of America breeder member will not dock a tail, even on request. So you are faced with the luck of the draw for health & temperament with backyard breeders and/or puppy mills.

Flossiesmum wrote:

kerry wrote:

bizboots wrote:
Because , this is according to our standard !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,It has been so for ever and we DO NOT want to change that here.

Edy


I also think in part it is because we don't want to be forced to change it.


^

If they are for showing, shoudn't it be for fun for both dog and owner and not just to have a winning dog? I think Standards should be re-written to judge dogs on health, ability, obedience, how their best qualities are displayed, the relationship between dog and owner and looks rather than FOCUSING on what humans THINK they should look like.


FIrstly, I think there is an assumption that docking is an inhumane act - it isn't. Having docked tails on sheep I know it is less stressful than some of the things we feel are right to teach the dogs. It is definitly less stressful than spaying or neutering.

Secondly, if we can start showing in a natural coat or even a shaved dog - then I'll talk about tails. I mean face it what is more bizarre than the accepted show coat?

Quote:
I also think in part it is because we don't want to be forced to change it.


Most breeders and owner for that matter prefer the docked OES for many reasons, one of them being the bear like roll which is no longer visable because of the tail.


Quote:
I agree, many people don't like being forced to do things and often forcing an issue can make things worse, it is better to be given all the relevant facts and make your own informed choice. Cool


To a certain extent I agree with this but in Europe the docking ban was forced upon us, although we tried to fight this it was pushed through.

Quote:
As for breed standard, surely that isn't the be all and end all, do most people not have dogs as pets only?? Confused


Most people have their OES's as pets, but it really is not that easy changing the breed standard to suit the occasion, in Europe we have had the docking ban for more than 10 years and still no one can really say how the tail should be carried, I have three at home and they all carry their tail differently.


Quote:
If they are for showing, shoudn't it be for fun for both dog and owner and not just to have a winning dog? I think Standards should be re-written to judge dogs on health, ability, obedience, how their best qualities are displayed, the relationship between dog and owner and looks rather than FOCUSING on what humans THINK they should look like. Tail or no tail, it shouldn't really be a mark of whether the dog is a good example of the breed as it isn't down to the dog or breeding it is just humans interfering. Rolling Eyes


Not all OES's are show quality and over 90% of the people who go to shows go to enjoy themselves but certainly not for fun, shows or rather the judges help to access the quality of your dog for possible future breeding purposes, breeders can see the stud dogs which are available for them to use, they have a chance to compare the breed types, these things are very important for our breed. A good breeder will only use a dog which is as near to the standard as possible and this includes health, type and very important temperament. Regarding the relationship between dog and owner this lies purely with the owner and not the dog and certainly not the breeder. Of coarse every breeder has a certain influence in their breeding then everyone has their special priorities and this is also the same in breeding but in the end all breeders want to breed the PERFECT dog.
Also...

Quote:
Just because something as been a certain way for a long time doesn't mean it is right or shouldn't be changed Confused
Surely if no one has a 100% reason why tails should or were docked in the past, there is obviously no need for it in these times, so why continue it? Just because it pleases some people to look at?? Shocked


In Europe we have accepted the fact that we are no onger allowed to dock and I also feel there is no cause for it today as our dogs are no longer working dogs, but saying that I long for the good old day of the BOBTAIL, then in Europe now we have very few left instead we have become the OLD ENGLISH SHEEPDOG, oh and by the way they have more temperament with their tail than without.
It's really going to be interesting to see how how anti-docking legislation plays out in the US. Seems like the battle has been difficult so far, just to fight spaying/neutering laws that want all pups to be spayed before 4 months old. I know people will fight tooth and nail to keep docking in effect, but in reality, I don't think there are enough people to fight this fight here. Especially if big money is behind the animal activists like Peta.

A lot of people recently seem to be asking if our dogs tails are "docked", and I try to educate them on the process. The general pet population does see it as being cruel, and it's going to take a real effort to make people understand.
It is not what humans want, let me tell you a bit of the history: The breed is over 300 years old and always has been hheavily coated, they resembled sheep and were working with the sheep, so sheep are docked at birth , so the OES, for cleanliness , also they were shaved together with the sheep. A working OES in those times lived out in the field with the shepherd and did not go home for months at the time, and the shepherd did not carry a grooming table, to groom the dogs nor the sheep.
So imagine this , a bushy tail being out in the elements and not been cleaned in months, is an attraction to all sorts of bugs and that is the reason why the OES is a docked breed,
The standard is written to preserve the type of dog , its cobbimess etc. to be able to do its job at any time. That is what makes a breed.

Ethical and resposible breeders , breed according to the standard and have big issues with health and temperament. They want an OES according to its conformation with the optimum in health.

So, BY breeders who only want to make a bug, don't care about the breed specifics, who don't even look like a true OES anymore. If you want one of those, you might as well get a mutt from a shelter, cheaper and you do someting to rescue another dog.

Sorry if I sound harsch, and it is not ment personally to any one, just my opinoin.
It sounds to me that docking the dogs has been forced on breeders. Would be nice to have the choice of NOT docking....Choices are nice.. Laughing

I know of both Canadian and American ethical breeders, who show, that will leave a tail on a pup if asked.

These breeders fly below the radar because of the backlash that results if the truth came out....but they are there. Don't stop looking because the first few breeders contacted will refuse to do it. There are those what will do it, because they have the choice, and would rather have the choice but cannot say so because of the strong feeling against it.

The comments on this topic are an indication of that. What good, ethical breeder would come here and state that they would leave a tail on, and risk getting the backlash? I wouldn't....
When I reserved Ted, two years ago, I had to pay 50.00 deposit to keep his tail on. Well worth it!

Bosley's mom wrote:
It sounds to me that docking the dogs has been forced on breeders. Would be nice to have the choice of NOT docking....Choices are nice.. Laughing

[b]I would, only for export to countries where they have a docking ban, I have a list of people already wanting my dogs and I am not afraid of what any one tells me, the prospective owners in countries where they are forced to dock , have a right to choose a puppy from who ever they like , and do not need to be punished for their desire

I know of both Canadian and American ethical breeders, who show, that will leave a tail on a pup if asked.

These breeders fly below the radar because of the backlash that results if the truth came out....but they are there. Don't stop looking because the first few breeders contacted will refuse to do it. There are those what will do it, because they have the choice, and would rather have the choice but cannot say so because of the strong feeling against it.

The comments on this topic are an indication of that. What good, ethical breeder would come here and state that they would leave a tail on, and risk getting the backlash? I wouldn't....

Bosley's mom wrote:
It sounds to me that docking the dogs has been forced on breeders. Would be nice to have the choice of NOT docking....Choices are nice.. Laughing

I know of both Canadian and American ethical breeders, who show, that will leave a tail on a pup if asked.

These breeders fly below the radar because of the backlash that results if the truth came out....but they are there. Don't stop looking because the first few breeders contacted will refuse to do it. There are those what will do it, because they have the choice, and would rather have the choice but cannot say so because of the strong feeling against it.

The comments on this topic are an indication of that. What good, ethical breeder would come here and state that they would leave a tail on, and risk getting the backlash? I wouldn't....


Docking was not forced on breeders then the OES has been docked for as long as man can remember, instead the docking ban is being forced on more and more breeders, although I have grown like the OES with a tail and I admit I see no reason to dock the OES in this day and age in most countries in Europe we no longer have that choice as it is now illegal to dock the dogs.

I have no idea how breeders in America and Canada react to not docking a dog when the puppy buyer requests for the tail to be left on, so I will not make any statement regarding this subject.

I have not read any backlashes just the opinions of different forum members, Edy (Bizzboots) is a well respected breeder and Judge who has years of experience behind her, she also judges regularly in Europe and has gathered enough knowledge about our breed and certainly knows a lot about its history.
I have had 2 puppies born without tails. Neither one of the pups lived, as they both had other problems....

One other reason that has not been mentioned is when pups are born, their central nervous system has not completed. This is one reason we dock before they are 5 days old....... It is IMPOSSIBLE to tell which pups will be show quality at that age! I remember being asked to leave a tail on one of my pups 10 years ago.... and they were willing to pay LOTS more money for it...... but no amout of money will have me keeping a tail on any from my litters.......

Flossiesmum wrote:
......you wouldn't have a baby a few days old and have their little finger amputated just because you thought it looked better?? Crying or Very sad


People circumsize babies...

barney1 wrote:

Flossiesmum wrote:
......you wouldn't have a baby a few days old and have their little finger amputated just because you thought it looked better?? Crying or Very sad


People circumsize babies...


Babies nervous systems are fully developed so no we wouldn't.

Of more interst to me is the following by Dairymaid

Quote:
oh and by the way they have more temperament with their tail than without.


Can you expand on that?
My cousin had a 6th finger on each hand and they amputated those early in his life.
Just wondering.... some of you who have a problem with docking, why is no complaint ever made about dewclaws?

I'm in favor of docking and of course dewclaw removal, but I am curious about the opinions.

Ron wrote:
My cousin had a 6th finger on each hand and they amputated those early in his life.

didn't he used to hang around Prince humperdinck? i kwow someone that is looking for him.

peeps wrote:

Ron wrote:
My cousin had a 6th finger on each hand and they amputated those early in his life.

didn't he used to hang around Prince humperdinck? i kwow someone that is looking for him.


ha ha ha! I was trying to work in an Enigo Montoya reference somehow...
For me dewclaw removal has a purpose, and that would be for the safety of the dog. I have heard many nightmare stories of dogs getting them caught and ripping them off....ouch! Shocked
everyone is going to have a different opinion on this, it is one of those topics that everyone has an opinion on, like abortion, euthanasia etc... Confused

I personally wouldn't circumcise a baby either unless there was a medical reason, but I can respect those who argue it is for hygiene / religion... although I haven't heard anyone say that they have children circumcised because they think it looks better! Confused I disagree with docking more so than other procedures as it is genrally just to please the human eye, I don't think it inhumane, just pointless to do just for looks, when they look fine just as nature intended them.

Dew claws, I can understand the argument that they can get caught and tear, but I personally have never met or heard of anyone with a dog that has done this, again personally I wouldn't have my dogs dew claws removed either. I personally disagree with docking on all dog breeds.

There are obviously a fair number of breeders and show persons on this site, which I haven't a problem with, but that will affect the majority of opinions so there will be a bias sway.
In the same light; I work at a vets, a zoo and I am currently completing a degree in animal management (care,welfare,behaviour,anatomy,biology,physiology,nutrition,ecology etc...) so again my opinion is going to be bias due to my back ground, particularly from my experiences at the veterinary practise.
I'm also from the UK where docking has been banned, all of these factors will affect my opinion, which is the same for all, for example: I would assume that there are no breeders or very few that will disagree with docking, it is all to do with your view point.

in the end there will be no conclusive answer nor a solution that everyone will agree to. Embarassed

Flossiesmum wrote:
I haven't heard anyone say that they have children circumcised because they think it looks better! Confused

actually---i do! but i've only seen a few, mind you.

peeps wrote:

Flossiesmum wrote:
I haven't heard anyone say that they have children circumcised because they think it looks better! Confused

actually---i do! but i've only seen a few, mind you.


Would you have your child circumcised for that reason alone though?
yup--that was one of the reasons.

Flossiesmum wrote:

peeps wrote:

Flossiesmum wrote:
I haven't heard anyone say that they have children circumcised because they think it looks better! Confused

actually---i do! but i've only seen a few, mind you.


Would you have your child circumcised for that reason alone though?


I would. It's what I know as 'the norm.' I wouldn't have it done for religious reasons or anything, but I think it looks better. I know it's not as popular in Europe as it is in America. But I just read an article in my Ob/Gyn's office on Monday talking about how there IS evidence that it may be better in the long run for the health of the boy/man, but not that NOT doing it isn't fine either. It's just a personal choice.

barney1 wrote:
It's just a personal choice.
Not exactly personal choice, since the person in question isn't making the choice, but I get what you mean. Very Happy



(as I sit here nervously reading, subconsciously crossing my legs...)

barney1 wrote:

Flossiesmum wrote:

peeps wrote:

Flossiesmum wrote:
I haven't heard anyone say that they have children circumcised because they think it looks better! Confused

actually---i do! but i've only seen a few, mind you.


Would you have your child circumcised for that reason alone though?


I know it's not as popular in Europe as it is in America. .

okay--remind me not to have a fling in paris!!!!

Ron wrote:

barney1 wrote:
It's just a personal choice.
Not exactly personal choice, since the person in question isn't making the choice, but I get what you mean. Very Happy



(as I sit here nervously reading, subconsciously crossing my legs...)


LOL, at the vets, when a family comes in for advise on having their dog castrated, the men always get squeemish Shocked

Flossiesmum wrote:
everyone is going to have a different opinion on this, it is one of those topics that everyone has an opinion on, like abortion, euthanasia etc... Confused

I personally wouldn't circumcise a baby either unless there was a medical reason, but I can respect those who argue it is for hygiene / religion... although I haven't heard anyone say that they have children circumcised because they think it looks better! Confused


Seriously? That would be my number one reason to do it. As this is a family friendly forum, I won't even delve into how I feel about the looks of the alternative. Yuck. I'd never punish a kid with that thing.

ButtersStotch wrote:

Flossiesmum wrote:
everyone is going to have a different opinion on this, it is one of those topics that everyone has an opinion on, like abortion, euthanasia etc... Confused

I personally wouldn't circumcise a baby either unless there was a medical reason, but I can respect those who argue it is for hygiene / religion... although I haven't heard anyone say that they have children circumcised because they think it looks better! Confused


Seriously? That would be my number one reason to do it. As this is a family friendly forum, I won't even delve into how I feel about the looks of the alternative. Yuck. I'd never punish a kid with that thing.


Ditto.... Yuck.

Willowsprite wrote:

ButtersStotch wrote:

Flossiesmum wrote:
everyone is going to have a different opinion on this, it is one of those topics that everyone has an opinion on, like abortion, euthanasia etc... Confused

I personally wouldn't circumcise a baby either unless there was a medical reason, but I can respect those who argue it is for hygiene / religion... although I haven't heard anyone say that they have children circumcised because they think it looks better! Confused


Seriously? That would be my number one reason to do it. As this is a family friendly forum, I won't even delve into how I feel about the looks of the alternative. Yuck. I'd never punish a kid with that thing.


Ditto.... Yuck.


I think appearance is probably the the main reason that most Americans do it. That's just the norm here.
let's put it this way....if my husband was an oes....i would want him docked
that's why i docked---i mean circumcised my son.
Hornets nest but hey ho.......... Twisted Evil

Ameicans really aren't big fans of "mother nature"! And "she's" done such a good job over the time the world has had life on it. Very Happy

There are in most cases good reasons for all body parts on all animals, otherwise evolution would take place and those parts would be slowly reduced and lost, like own own tails Shocked

I guess you guys circumcise the girls too, for the same reasons and aren't big fans of breast feeding either?

What a crazy world we live in at present.

I'm pleased majority of attitudes aren't the same in the UK
Oke guys ,
We were talking about OES and not about baby boys and girls, this is something for another group???? It is a choice ( not the girls though) people make, aslo has something to do with the believes of some .
so please let's change the subject
Edy, who has no kids , just OES


Flossiesmum wrote:
Hornets nest but hey ho.......... Twisted Evil

Ameicans really aren't big fans of "mother nature"! And "she's" done such a good job over the time the world has had life on it. Very Happy

There are in most cases good reasons for all body parts on all animals, otherwise evolution would take place and those parts would be slowly reduced and lost, like own own tails Shocked

I guess you guys circumcise the girls too, for the same reasons and aren't big fans of breast feeding either?

What a crazy world we live in at present.

I'm pleased majority of attitudes aren't the same in the UK

bizboots wrote:
Oke guys ,
We were talking about OES and not about baby boys and girls, this is something for another group???? It is a choice ( not the girls though) people make, aslo has something to do with the believes of some .
so please let's change the subject
Edy, who has no kids , just OES


LOL Laughing
Unfortunately, in North America the breed clubs have taken away the choice of "to dock or not to dock".

Too bad for the dogs.

Bosley's mom wrote:
Unfortunately, in North America the breed clubs have taken away the choice of "to dock or not to dock".

Too bad for the dogs.


And unfortunately some peole can't have discussions without being demeaning.
we haven't docked in Australia since 2004. Very Happy I love my new pup Henry and the tail is just so darn cute Laughing Exclamation
I love the look of a docked OES...it is all I had ever seen until recently. I hope we can keep them that way in the US, but hey, I just love the breed. If I had to have a tail I would deal with it...at least they have nice tails. I still prefer the wigglebums though. Very Happy

little bear wrote:
we haven't docked in Australia since 2004. Very Happy I love my new pup Henry and the tail is just so darn cute Laughing Exclamation


I was looking at the pictures you posted and Henry is mighty cute! hearts
I don't want to get into the With tail or Without tail debate, the only thing I get Huffy about is legal stuff denying choice.

This is my first time experience with a tail and I at the moment am enjoying the tails, Hygiene issue that we fought with as part of a submission to government to stop the docking ban is out the window, from personal experience they are cleaner with the poopies and especially if runny with a tail. If it was one of mine that is docked and runny I would of been cleaning up the butt and back of the legs and hocks.

I am just annoyed the Freedom of choice is taken away by government. Evil or Very Mad

Oh and wine glasses and low tables are dangerous with sheepies with those tails, they can clear a low table with one wag. Laughing

I still think it should be a freedom of choice and not Law as to wether to dock or not Wink

So if it is rearing it's ugly head over there then the Hygiene issue will not work, we were advised when we were fighting the legislation not to go that route to look at other reasons why an OES has to be docked.

I must admit the tails are lovely, body language on them is exasperated with the tails, you can tell when really happy or a bit hesitant as to the position of the tail, starting to accept the tail, especially on an adult OES, very meaty and fluffy. Cool Laughing Laughing

If you are fighting this docking ban then look to other aspects rather then Hygiene as that won't work.

With or without a tail there still OES and a breed that I adore, it took me awhile to breed, but I would rather have an OES to love then none in my life wether they have a tail hanging off the butt or not. There is something special about the breed and how they are part of the family that I could never imagine not having them in my life because they have a tail as an extra to groom and wash. Wink Very Happy
you do get use to the tails, a little weird at first because the wiggle bums are so cute. But when I shave my sheepies they look fine with out the tails I get the giggles. But at first it was the other way around. So it is what we get use to.
Now I am not trying to be nasty or mean, but the way I see it, mother nature also gifted them with sex organs and dew claws. We can split hairs about necessary vs unnecessary all we like, but we choose to spay and Neuter, we choose to remove dew claws, and we should have the choice to Humanely dock or not to dock.

Honestly I don't care, tail or no I love the dog, but when we get right down to it, many of the things we do to our furry friends aren't really all that nice, aren't really natural, and are for our benefit, is it immoral? To train them to do our bidding, to dress them in little cutesy sweaters, to carry them around in bags, Crate them, stick them under big scary hair dryers, etc. Just think, we have all done those things that we swear we can see our dogs roll there eyes and say oh my god NOOOOO to it, does it stop us? Not really, but our furries survive, and still love us the same as before.

Our furry friends have it allot better then what nature has in store for wildlife, unless we are jerks who GENUINELY miss-treat our furry friends. Sometimes even that's better then mother nature, I live with mother nature, 80 acres in the middle of nowhere, I've realized shes one nasty tempered evil wench. I hate when people use what is natural to say what is nice. Being eaten, sometimes while kicking and screaming is natural, I wouldn't however consider it kind. Last year I saved a duckling, from a perfectly natural death, its mother vanished (most likely coyotes in this area), crows ate its nest mates and were working on it when I found it, one eye and a big scar but it survived. Takes a human to be humane.

vampyreshadow wrote:
Now I am not trying to be nasty or mean, but the way I see it, mother nature also gifted them with sex organs and dew claws. We can split hairs about necessary vs unnecessary all we like, but we choose to spay and Neuter, we choose to remove dew claws, and we should have the choice to Humanely dock or not to dock. .


If you read some history regarding the OES you may find some different reasons for docking the dogs in the old days, some them are reasonable some are questionable but in the end we have done it for centuries until some organizations decided it was wrong and got it banned. Personnally I disagree with the removal of dew claws as well as having a dog / bitch speyed or neutered except when it has to be done for the sake of the dogs health. Smile


vampyreshadow wrote:
Honestly I don't care, tail or no I love the dog, but when we get right down to it, many of the things we do to our furry friends aren't really all that nice, aren't really natural, and are for our benefit, is it immoral? To train them to do our bidding, to dress them in little cutesy sweaters, to carry them around in bags, Crate them, stick them under big scary hair dryers, etc. Just think, we have all done those things that we swear we can see our dogs roll there eyes and say oh my god NOOOOO to it, does it stop us? Not really, but our furries survive, and still love us the same as before. .


If we are going to have a dog as a companion they have to be trained and there is no way of getting around that, they have to learn that you are leader of the pack and they have to obey you as they would another pack leader in the wildlife. As far as dressing them or carring them about this is just people being vain and personnally I believe they should not have pets at all, although it would be hard to carry a sheepie around all day !. No matter what we do to our pets they will always love us for it, they are forever faithful to their leader. Smile


vampyreshadow wrote:
Our furry friends have it allot better then what nature has in store for wildlife, unless we are jerks who GENUINELY miss-treat our furry friends. Sometimes even that's better then mother nature, I live with mother nature, 80 acres in the middle of nowhere, I've realized shes one nasty tempered evil wench. I hate when people use what is natural to say what is nice. Being eaten, sometimes while kicking and screaming is natural, I wouldn't however consider it kind. Last year I saved a duckling, from a perfectly natural death, its mother vanished (most likely coyotes in this area), crows ate its nest mates and were working on it when I found it, one eye and a big scar but it survived. Takes a human to be humane.


I am sorry but I disagree with you regarding Mother Nature, it may seem that she is an evil Wench but she is doing her job by regulating the various species and she does it very well. The problems start when humans but in and think they know better, unfortunately this is not the case and we have a lot to learn, and as far as I am concerned we the humans can be more evil than Mother Nature would ever be. Evil or Very Mad

dairymaid wrote:

vampyreshadow wrote:
Now I am not trying to be nasty or mean, but the way I see it, mother nature also gifted them with sex organs and dew claws. We can split hairs about necessary vs unnecessary all we like, but we choose to spay and Neuter, we choose to remove dew claws, and we should have the choice to Humanely dock or not to dock. .


If you read some history regarding the OES you may find some different reasons for docking the dogs in the old days, some them are reasonable some are questionable but in the end we have done it for centuries until some organizations decided it was wrong and got it banned. Personnally I disagree with the removal of dew claws as well as having a dog / bitch speyed or neutered except when it has to be done for the sake of the dogs health. Smile


vampyreshadow wrote:
Honestly I don't care, tail or no I love the dog, but when we get right down to it, many of the things we do to our furry friends aren't really all that nice, aren't really natural, and are for our benefit, is it immoral? To train them to do our bidding, to dress them in little cutesy sweaters, to carry them around in bags, Crate them, stick them under big scary hair dryers, etc. Just think, we have all done those things that we swear we can see our dogs roll there eyes and say oh my god NOOOOO to it, does it stop us? Not really, but our furries survive, and still love us the same as before. .


If we are going to have a dog as a companion they have to be trained and there is no way of getting around that, they have to learn that you are leader of the pack and they have to obey you as they would another pack leader in the wildlife. As far as dressing them or carring them about this is just people being vain and personnally I believe they should not have pets at all, although it would be hard to carry a sheepie around all day !. No matter what we do to our pets they will always love us for it, they are forever faithful to their leader. Smile


vampyreshadow wrote:
Our furry friends have it allot better then what nature has in store for wildlife, unless we are jerks who GENUINELY miss-treat our furry friends. Sometimes even that's better then mother nature, I live with mother nature, 80 acres in the middle of nowhere, I've realized shes one nasty tempered evil wench. I hate when people use what is natural to say what is nice. Being eaten, sometimes while kicking and screaming is natural, I wouldn't however consider it kind. Last year I saved a duckling, from a perfectly natural death, its mother vanished (most likely coyotes in this area), crows ate its nest mates and were working on it when I found it, one eye and a big scar but it survived. Takes a human to be humane.


I am sorry but I disagree with you regarding Mother Nature, it may seem that she is an evil Wench but she is doing her job by regulating the various species and she does it very well. The problems start when humans but in and think they know better, unfortunately this is not the case and we have a lot to learn, and as far as I am concerned we the humans can be more evil than Mother Nature would ever be. Evil or Very Mad


I know the history behind docking, and I'm on the fence, personally if it was put under my own accord I wouldn't dock, but I was trying to say I wasn't against the choice because I don't find it any more or less cruel then allot of things. I generally spay and neuter however due to also being on the receiving end of to many unwanted animals, Stray dogs being the worst considering Dogs do not do so well as cats as feral strays.

As for my views of nature, the truth is nature doesn't care, she has no fealing's she just does, I equated her to human for the sake of the typical disney perspective I run into to often. People who actually believe friend owl wouldn't eat Thumper in the real world (reason behind my local I prefer nature to most humans, but I am far from a misanthrope) humans have more of a propensity for evil but they also have an astounding propensity for good. I do indeed love humanity with the same heart that hates it. For every cure we create, we create new methods of destruction. And honestly some of us will never learn, that is what it means to be human. But in the End I can not hate the same race of beings that can create vaccines for deadly human and animal illnesses, create surgeries that better life for all of said creatures, and have extended the lives of the people and animals I love.

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